Legislature(2013 - 2014)CAPITOL 106

03/13/2014 08:00 AM House STATE AFFAIRS


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08:06:28 AM Start
08:06:33 AM HB310
09:14:54 AM Adjourn
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
*+ HB 310 U.S. CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION DELEGATES TELECONFERENCED
Heard & Held
+ Bills Previously Heard/Scheduled TELECONFERENCED
                    ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                                  
             HOUSE STATE AFFAIRS STANDING COMMITTEE                                                                           
                         March 13, 2014                                                                                         
                           8:06 a.m.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative Bob Lynn, Chair                                                                                                  
Representative Wes Keller, Vice Chair                                                                                           
Representative Lynn Gattis                                                                                                      
Representative Shelley Hughes                                                                                                   
Representative Doug Isaacson                                                                                                    
Representative Jonathan Kreiss-Tomkins                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative Charisse Millett                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE BILL NO. 310                                                                                                              
"An Act relating to the selection and duties of delegates to a                                                                  
United States constitutional convention."                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     - HEARD & HELD                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
BILL: HB 310                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE: U.S. CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION DELEGATES                                                                           
SPONSOR(s): REPRESENTATIVE(s) T.WILSON                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
02/17/14       (H)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
02/17/14       (H)       STA                                                                                                    
03/13/14       (H)       STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 106                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TAMMIE WILSON                                                                                                    
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  As prime sponsor, presented HB 310.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MIKE COONS, Regional Director                                                                                                   
Citizen Initiatives                                                                                                             
Palmer, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified during the hearing on HB 310.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
8:06:28 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR BOB LYNN called the  House State Affairs Standing Committee                                                             
meeting to  order at 8:06  a.m.  Representatives  Keller, Gattis,                                                               
Isaacson, Hughes,  Kreiss-Tomkins, and  Lynn were present  at the                                                               
call to order.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
        HB 310-U.S. CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION DELEGATES                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
8:06:33 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LYNN  announced that the  only order of business  was HOUSE                                                               
BILL NO.  310, "An Act  relating to  the selection and  duties of                                                               
delegates to a United States constitutional convention."                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
8:07:03 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TAMMIE WILSON, Alaska  State Legislature, as prime                                                               
sponsor,  introduced HB  310.   She indicated  that the  proposed                                                               
legislation  would address  the calling  of a  convention of  the                                                               
states, based on  three issues.  She said she  had been asked how                                                               
she  could prevent  a runaway  convention  and how  the issue  of                                                               
delegates could be  addressed, and she said HB  310 outlines both                                                               
issues.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE T.  WILSON said under  HB 310, no matter  how many                                                               
delegates are sent, there would be  only one vote for each state.                                                               
Further, [the  delegates] would  not be  paid for  their service.                                                               
The states would  direct their delegates in what to  do and could                                                               
dismiss them for not following the directive.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
8:08:38 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LYNN asked if expenses  the delegate incurred for hotel and                                                               
transportation would be covered.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE T. WILSON answered that  that provision was not in                                                               
the  proposed legislation;  however, she  said that  is something                                                               
the committee could consider adding.   She then brought attention                                                               
to  a handout  [included in  the committee  packet], which  shows                                                               
examples  of what  other  states have  done.   In  response to  a                                                               
follow-up  question  from  Chair  Lynn, she  confirmed  that  the                                                               
matter  of  individual compensation  would  be  up to  individual                                                               
states.  She  said the decision could  be made at any  time.  She                                                               
pointed out that because HB  310 would not, as currently drafted,                                                               
provide  for compensation,  the  result would  be  a zero  fiscal                                                               
note.   She  emphasized that  it would  be completely  up to  the                                                               
states what the  delegates would be allowed to do.   She said the                                                               
violation penalty for  a delegate who did not  follow the state's                                                               
directive could be a  Class C felony.  She said  she was not sure                                                               
the  penalty should  be so  strict, since  anyone convicted  of a                                                               
Class  C  felony  would  no  longer be  allowed  to  vote.    She                                                               
emphasized that  the process  for calling  a convention  would be                                                               
taken seriously, with parameters set.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   T.  WILSON   brought  attention   back  to   the                                                               
aforementioned handout,  and she pointed  out that of  the states                                                               
listed,  South Dakota  and West  Virginia only  appear under  the                                                               
examples  of  limitation  of authority  of  delegates,  violation                                                               
penalties,   and  compensation,   because   they   do  not   have                                                               
legislation  related  to  delegate  qualifications.    For  those                                                               
states  that do  set out  delegate qualifications,  she said  the                                                               
qualifications  are similar,  especially  when establishing  what                                                               
the states do not want to allow.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
8:11:13 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  LYNN   expressed  concern   that  the  lengthiness   of  a                                                               
convention  could  preclude  anyone  who  was  not  independently                                                               
wealthy  from serving.    He  opined that  the  state should  not                                                               
discriminate in choosing  delegates based on how  much money they                                                               
are able to afford for travel and meals.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  T. WILSON  reiterated  that  the committee  could                                                               
include language  in the proposed  bill to allow decisions  to be                                                               
made at  the time of the  convention when more details  about the                                                               
convention would be available.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
8:12:24 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ISAACSON asked  if  the bill  sponsor was  saying                                                               
that language related  to compensation could be added  to page 2,                                                               
line 18, which addresses the  instructions that would be given to                                                               
delegates.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE T. WILSON  responded, "I think what  we might want                                                               
to do is take it out and let  that be determined at the time.  If                                                               
we don't address  whether they're compensated or  not, that would                                                               
leave that discretion totally up  to the legislature when they're                                                               
doing that."                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ISAACSON  directed attention  to page 2,  line 15,                                                               
which read, "(e) Delegates and  alternate delegates serve without                                                               
compensation."  He said that may  be taken at face value, and the                                                               
legislature may  not determine compensation.   He said  he thinks                                                               
"we  need to  change it  somewhere."   He  directed attention  to                                                               
language in  subsection (c), on  page 3, lines [1-3],  which read                                                               
as follows:                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     (c) A delegate appointed under AS 15.50.120(a) or (c) who                                                                  
casts  or   attempts  to   cast  a  vote   at  a   United  States                                                               
constitutional  convention   that  is   not  authorized   by  the                                                               
instructions the legislature provided".                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ISAACSON asked, "So, is  it our intent to, at that                                                               
time,  allow  the  legislature  to  allow  any  refinements,  any                                                               
clarifications of the language, because  we know that they're not                                                               
going to be able to exactly cast a vote?"                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  T. WILSON  answered that  it would  be up  to the                                                               
legislature to  decide how  exacting to be  and whether  to allow                                                               
the delegates to have discussions  on one topic, but not another.                                                               
In response  to a question,  she said some states  have expressed                                                               
that they would send two  delegates, while others have not stated                                                               
how many they would send.   She said the decision to compensate a                                                               
full per  diem may  influence how many  delegates would  be sent.                                                               
She  said  some states  plan  to  send sitting  legislators,  who                                                               
already receive  compensation.   She said  because only  one vote                                                               
per  state  would  be  allowed,  it  may  be  too  difficult  for                                                               
delegates to come  to a consensus if there are  too many of them.                                                               
She  said  she  thinks  Alaska  would  send  a  small  number  of                                                               
delegates,  but she  wanted  to  leave that  decision  up to  the                                                               
legislature.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
8:16:31 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LYNN ventured that there  should be more than one delegate,                                                               
so that they could consult with each other.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE T. WILSON concurred.   She indicated that it would                                                               
behoove the  state to have a  backup delegate who could  be ready                                                               
to  fly to  the  convention  if the  delegate  at the  convention                                                               
committed a violation and was sent home.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
8:17:04 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HUGHES asked  if under  HB 310,  the state  could                                                               
pass a  resolution to allow an  added topic of discussion  at the                                                               
convention.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE T. WILSON confirmed that is correct.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
8:18:52 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KELLER indicated that he  would like to delete the                                                               
previously cited  language of "subsection  (e), on line  15, page                                                               
2," so that  "the compensation question would  be unstated rather                                                               
than denied."                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE T. WILSON  concurred.  She stated  her belief that                                                               
taking  the  language out  would  generate  a conversation  about                                                               
reimbursement.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
8:20:14 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ISAACSON  offered   his  understanding  that  the                                                               
recommendation had  been to delete  all of [subsection]  (e), and                                                               
he made a suggestion as follows:                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     I like  the words that you've  got on page 3,  and just                                                                    
     use  that  again on  page  2,  line  15, where  we  say                                                                    
     "compensation  for  delegates and  alternate  delegates                                                                    
     shall   be  determined   by   joint  resolution   under                                                                    
     15.50.130(a)," which basically says:   "Before the date                                                                    
     established    for    convening   a    United    States                                                                    
     constitutional  convention, the  legislature shall,  by                                                                    
     joint  resolution,  provide instructions",  et  cetera.                                                                    
     And  so, at  that time  just  lump it  into that  joint                                                                    
     resolution.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ISAACSON asked if  that would follow the sponsor's                                                               
intent.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
8:21:07 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE T. WILSON answered that would work.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
8:21:19 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE T.  WILSON, in response  to Chair Lynn,  offered a                                                               
sectional analysis.  She said  Section 1(a) states that delegates                                                               
and  alternate delegates  to  a  constitutional convention  would                                                               
have to  be:   qualified voters,  residents of  the state  for at                                                               
least three years  preceding the appointment, and  not members of                                                               
the U.S. House of Representatives  or Senate.  She indicated that                                                               
Section 1(b) relates  to a joint resolution  [appointing and U.S.                                                               
Representative  or   Senator  to   Alaska  as  observer   of  the                                                               
constitutional convention], which  she noted must be  called by a                                                               
two-thirds vote  in order  to happen.   Section 1(c)  would allow                                                               
the legislature to  recall and replace delegates  or observers by                                                               
joint resolution.   Section 1(d)  sets forth the procedures  of a                                                               
convention.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE T.  WILSON stated  that starting  on page  2, line                                                               
16, the duties  of the delegates are listed,  including that they                                                               
would take an  oath of office and could be  charged with a felony                                                               
if they  do not abide by  the rules.  Subsection  (c) states that                                                               
under HB  310, a  delegate who attempts  to cast  an unauthorized                                                               
vote would  be in violation  of oath,  voided as a  delegate, and                                                               
immediately removed and  replaced.  She said she  left the felony                                                               
language in the bill for the  committee to see, but would be fine                                                               
with  it removed.   She  opined that  a felony  might be  a harsh                                                               
penalty for  someone who has made  the sacrifice to take  part in                                                               
the convention;  however, it is a  serious matter to hold  such a                                                               
convention  to  consider a  change  to  the Constitution  of  the                                                               
United States.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
8:24:00 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  LYNN  asked  where  most  of  the  language  of  the  bill                                                               
originated.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE T. WILSON answered most  of the language came from                                                               
the State of Indiana.  She  pointed to a handout in the committee                                                               
packet showing Indiana's legislation.   She then related that the                                                               
remaining  portion of  HB 310  contains the  language that  would                                                               
allow the  Class C felony as  a penalty.  She  indicated that she                                                               
has  heard  concern from  other  legislators  about not  allowing                                                               
individuals  to  determine why  they  are  at a  convention,  but                                                               
instead ensuring  that the delegate(s) chosen  by the legislature                                                               
represent that  body's intent.   She reminded the  committee that                                                               
"there  has never  been  one  of these  called  before," and  one                                                               
reason may  be because of the  difficulty of change itself.   She                                                               
talked about federal overreach coming  into everyday life, to the                                                               
point that  her constituents  are reaching out  to her  about the                                                               
issue.   She indicated that  the overreach is not  just happening                                                               
in  terms of  resource  development  and the  land  owned by  the                                                               
federal  government, but  also regarding  power  plants, how  the                                                               
land  is utilized,  and water  usage,  among other  issues.   She                                                               
said, "So,  I think  you're going to  see a  different motivation                                                               
that hasn't  been there  before."  She  opined that  the Founding                                                               
Fathers  would  not  have  put  in place  the  means  to  call  a                                                               
constitutional  convention   if  they   had  not   wanted  future                                                               
governments to utilize it.  At  the same time, she emphasized, it                                                               
is important  for everyone  to enter into  a convention  with the                                                               
same intent and with the same parameters set.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
8:27:22 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ISAACSON  offered his understanding that  "this is                                                               
actually  the ...  forty-first time  a convention  of states  has                                                               
been  called."   He  recounted that  prior  to the  Constitution,                                                               
there  had been  conventions of  state, but  the Commonwealth  of                                                               
Virginia  was the  first to  call it  a convention  of states  in                                                               
1789.   He ventured  that what  the sponsor  was saying  was that                                                               
none  of the  previous times  have "never  resulted in  an actual                                                               
convention."  He  said it would be instructive to  learn "how did                                                               
they  in  that time  deal  with  those who  did  not  vote?"   He                                                               
expressed concern with keeping the  felony as punishment, because                                                               
it could result  from an "honest disagreement,"  and the delegate                                                               
would probably  serve time in  jail, would lose his/her  right to                                                               
vote, and  may have  difficulty finding a  job.   He acknowledged                                                               
that  it is  an  important issue,  but  said he  is  not sure  it                                                               
deserves the consequence of calling it a felony.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  T.  WILSON reiterated  she  had  no problem  with                                                               
changing the language  to just removing the  delegate, but wanted                                                               
to show the gamut of possibilities.   She said there had not been                                                               
a convention of states since "the  Article 5 portion has been put                                                               
in."  She said there have  been resolutions that have been passed                                                               
on various  issues asking for  [a convention], but not  34 states                                                               
coming together  to request  one.  She  concluded, "This  is much                                                               
different  than  any  other  convention  that  many  people  have                                                               
experienced."                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
8:30:57 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GATTIS  questioned whether there is  a penalty for                                                               
those  who cast  electoral votes  for President  other than  they                                                               
have been directed.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE T. WILSON said she does not know.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GATTIS   opined  that  there  should   be  severe                                                               
consequences for someone who represents  all Alaska and agrees to                                                               
vote for the state but goes "off the reservation."                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LYNN  said he thinks Representative  Gattis' question about                                                               
penalties related to electoral votes was  a good one, and said he                                                               
would like to know what  the consequences are, because they could                                                               
be a guideline.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
8:32:52 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HUGHES  said she  believes it  should be  a severe                                                               
consequence,  because  it   could  be  one  vote   that  makes  a                                                               
difference.  She noted that  other states have the felony penalty                                                               
in place.   She  said she  was having  trouble picturing  how one                                                               
delegate "might  go off"  in voting if  there were,  for example,                                                               
five delegates sent.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE T.  WILSON responded  that it  would be  one vote,                                                               
and  all  five  people  would  be "giving  that  vote  on  that."                                                               
Therefore, she said it would  not be possible to distinguish "who                                                               
went off the  reservation," because "you couldn't  judge it until                                                               
the amendment  was actually  brought forward  from that  group as                                                               
the one vote."                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HUGHES  asked  if  all five  delegates  would  be                                                               
punished with a felony for the single unauthorized vote.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE T.  WILSON answered  yes, because there  would not                                                               
be a distinction unless the  legislature set up one, for example,                                                               
by  appointing one  of the  five  as the  leader.   She said  the                                                               
legislature might want  to determine ahead of time  that it would                                                               
send  only  one or  two  delegates  so  there  would not  be  the                                                               
situation of someone in charge  deviating from the plan who "gets                                                               
someone to go a different direction."                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HUGHES  expressed  concerned there  may  be  five                                                               
delegates and "two totally disagreed,  but ... the three went and                                                               
voted against,  and then the two  who weren't in agreement  got a                                                               
felony."   She said that needs  to be addressed.   She noted that                                                               
under  HB 310,  observers from  Congress could  be sent,  and she                                                               
questioned whether there  could be some observers  from the state                                                               
sent, along with one or two delegates from Alaska.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE T. WILSON answered as follows:                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     In  most  of the  documents  we've  read, for  whatever                                                                    
     reason they were  sending just one.   Now, whether that                                                                    
     is  because  they're already  talking  about  a lot  of                                                                    
     people and  there's no  limit on  how many  delegates -                                                                    
     that may  have been  why the  one was  there.   I don't                                                                    
     think  there's a  number on  alternates, you  know, you                                                                    
     might be  able to do  that versus observers on  it, ...                                                                    
     but I  think you  made a good  point that  limiting the                                                                    
     number of  delegates you have,  especially if  you want                                                                    
     to  keep what  happens pretty  severe, is  a very  good                                                                    
     choice to go with.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HUGHES  concluded that  "all  of  that" would  be                                                               
decided  at  the  point  that  the  legislature  put  together  a                                                               
resolution with  instructions.  She  pointed to language  on page                                                               
2, beginning on line 10, which read as follows:                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
          (d) If a rule or procedure established by a                                                                           
     constitutional convention  called by a  two-thirds vote                                                                    
     of the  state legislatures  under art.  V, Constitution                                                                    
     of the  United States, is different  than the procedure                                                                    
     established  under  this   section,  selection  of  the                                                                    
     delegates  shall  comply  with the  rule  or  procedure                                                                    
     established by  the constitutional convention,  and the                                                                    
     delegates shall comply with AS 15.50.130.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HUGHES  next pointed  to the  language on  page 3,                                                               
which states that the vote would  be voided if the delegate voted                                                               
against instructions.   She asked, "What would happen  if, at the                                                               
convention, they  would make a rule  that said no votes  would be                                                               
voided?  Or could they ... make that rule at the convention?"                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  T. WILSON  said she  thinks they  could make  any                                                               
rules they want  at the convention; however,  the delegates would                                                               
still be  under the rules  that were set  up for them  in Alaska.                                                               
If  there was  a conflict  between the  two, it  could result  in                                                               
their  not being  able to  do anything  at the  convention.   She                                                               
emphasized  that the  state's instructions  would  be "first  and                                                               
foremost."                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HUGHES offered her  understanding that that is not                                                               
what  is  stated  on  the  aforementioned  language  on  page  2,                                                               
beginning on line 10.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE T. WILSON responded as follows:                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     Let's  just   say  that  we   were  given   a  specific                                                                    
     amendment; this amendment  was something different that                                                                    
     the convention brought up, and  the delegate decided to                                                                    
     say yes when the instruction  was no.  They would break                                                                    
     what they  were sent  for.  But  you're right,  I think                                                                    
     that's why the  Class C felony is, is  because it could                                                                    
     count.   The vote could  count if  they did, and  if it                                                                    
     was that  vote that got to  34.  Again, that's  why you                                                                    
     would want to  make sure there was  something harsh, so                                                                    
     that people knew that if  they went down that road what                                                                    
     would happen.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     The  other portion  of it  is that  if that  got passed                                                                    
     because  that happened  - because  that happened  to be                                                                    
     the  one vote  that ...  killed it,  the scale  - those                                                                    
     amendments still have to come  back to the state, where                                                                    
     38 would have  to ratify it; Alaska would  already be a                                                                    
     no at  that point, because  they had sent a  portion of                                                                    
     it.   So, I don't think  you could void out  their vote                                                                    
     on the  convention, because you  are not in  control of                                                                    
     the  convention; you're  in  control  of the  delegate.                                                                    
     And  again,  that's  why  you want  to  make  sure  the                                                                    
     delegates are very  clear on what can happen  if they -                                                                    
     as   Representative  Gattis   said   -   go  "off   the                                                                    
     reservation."                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HUGHES said  it is  difficult to  imagine how  it                                                               
would all  play out.   She questioned  whether there should  be a                                                               
plan in  place to remove  Alaska from participation  if something                                                               
happened  at the  constitutional convention  that Alaska  did not                                                               
support.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  T.  WILSON said  Alaska  could  pull out  at  any                                                               
point.   She indicated that the  main concern is the  choosing of                                                               
delegates, as well  as clarifying that the delegates  could go to                                                               
the  convention with  "these  amendments,  versus these  issues."                                                               
She said breaking it down to an  issue can go a lot further.  She                                                               
talked  about  clarity  having impact.    She  cautioned  against                                                               
[just] pulling  out one  person from  the convention,  instead of                                                               
replacing the person,  because the state would no  longer be part                                                               
of the discussion.   She said there are a  lot of "what-ifs," and                                                               
she understands  the concern is  real.   She stated, "But  at the                                                               
same time, sometimes you have to  ... take those, to go down that                                                               
road, because without it you can't make change."                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HUGHES  suggested there  may be a  circumstance in                                                               
which Alaska would want to pull  out of the convention, if it did                                                               
not agree  with the  course of  the convention  and its  one vote                                                               
would  make the  difference in  the two-thirds  vote requirement.                                                               
She offered  her understanding that  the sponsor was  saying that                                                               
Alaska could pull out at any time.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   T.  WILSON   confirmed  Representative   Hughes'                                                               
understanding  was correct.   She  said a  resolution was  passed                                                               
yesterday  that states  that  Alaska wants  to  participate in  a                                                               
convention,  if one  is called;  however, she  said Alaska  could                                                               
choose instead, for any reason, not to participate.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
8:44:23 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR   LYNN  offered   his  understanding   that  the   original                                                               
constitutional convention was closed to  the public, and he asked                                                               
if  a  new  constitutional  convention would  be  closed  to  the                                                               
public.   He asked  if anyone outside  of official  observers and                                                               
delegates would be allowed into the convention.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  T.  WILSON  offered her  understanding  that  the                                                               
observers would be officially designated.   She said she does not                                                               
know if the convention would be  open to the public, but ventured                                                               
that Congress  might determine  the parameters.   She  said there                                                               
would be  a large  number of  people coming  from the  minimum 34                                                               
states  that   would  be  necessary   to  have  called   for  the                                                               
convention, and other states could send people, as well.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LYNN  recollected that news of  the original constitutional                                                               
convention had been "a huge surprise."                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  T. WILSON  reiterated  that  Congress would  most                                                               
likely  decide  the  level  of  privacy, not  the  states.    She                                                               
expressed dubiousness  at the possibility  in current times  of a                                                               
convention being held without the public knowing about it.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
8:46:48 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KELLER  said there is  a huge body of  law related                                                               
to this  issue.  He  said he worked on  a similar bill  with Doug                                                               
Gardner,  a  bill  drafter  in  Legislative  Legal  and  Research                                                               
Services,  and  he  recommended  Mr.  Gardner  as  a  source  for                                                               
answering  questions.   Further, he  said there  is an  attorney,                                                               
[Robert G.] Natelson,  who has written a  history of conventions.                                                               
Representative  Keller said  [a state]  can  pull out  up to  the                                                               
point  of a  ratification, but  after that  there may  be guiding                                                               
rules as  to whether [a  state could  pull out], "because  of the                                                               
work that's  gone into it."   He said, "The two-thirds  just gets                                                               
us to a  drafting convention, and that is ...  the one that we're                                                               
guiding here in this process."                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KELLER  said he thinks  it is appropriate  to keep                                                               
the language  regarding the  Class C felony,  but he  pointed out                                                               
that  the standard  of "knowingly"  is a  high standard  of proof                                                               
that is important in criminal law.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
8:49:21 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GATTIS  indicated that her experience  taking part                                                               
as a  delegate in other types  of conventions has shown  her that                                                               
it is not  unusual for alternate delegates to be  appointed.  She                                                               
said the state  would tell the delegate what they  can and cannot                                                               
do, just  as electoral  delegates are told.   She  suggested that                                                               
the committee may be "worrying  about what-ifs that are not there                                                               
yet."                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
8:51:21 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   ISAACSON,   to    the   sponsor,   offered   his                                                               
understanding  that "the  questions  that you  were dealing  with                                                               
were  more in  the  instructions that  a  future legislature,  by                                                               
joint  resolution,  is going  to  ...  determine," especially  in                                                               
terms of  how changes would be  made at the convention.   He said                                                               
the aforementioned portions  of language in the bill,  on pages 2                                                               
and 3, look  contradictory, but the proposed  bill would instruct                                                               
future  legislatures  in  "how  to accommodate  that  type  of  a                                                               
scenario."    He said  he  was  a  delegate  to a  2004  National                                                               
Republican  convention, and  there  were  multiple delegates  who                                                               
chose which one would "pass the vote  for the state."  He said he                                                               
imagines that if  that person had gone against the  wishes of the                                                               
group, he/she  "would probably  be lynched."   That  person would                                                               
shoulder the most  liability in criminal complaint.   He ventured                                                               
that that would be determined by joint resolution later.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ISAACSON said  Ben Franklin  and John  Adams took                                                               
part  during the  treaty of  Paris, and  they had  to communicate                                                               
back to the states and wait  for clear instructions.  He referred                                                               
to Representative Keller's  comments and said there is  a body of                                                               
legal  precedent that  the committee  needs  to investigate  and,                                                               
perhaps, require.   He  stated, "And so,  by intent,  I'm saying,                                                               
'Let's  do it.'   I'm  agreeing.   Let's make  sure that  this is                                                               
incorporated  into the  discussion of  a future  legislature when                                                               
they make this joint resolution."                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ISAACSON, regarding  observers,  noted that  even                                                               
the  Arctic  Council has  observers  who  are not  geographically                                                               
located  in the  Arctic  and are  non-voters,  which may  include                                                               
countries such  as China and  Portugal, for example, who  want to                                                               
be  part of  the  discussion.   He ventured  that  if members  of                                                               
Congress are chosen  as observers, they may serve  as a reference                                                               
source  to  the  delegates  by giving  them  professional  advice                                                               
related to how  Congress might receive the  proposed amendment to                                                               
the constitution.   He expressed  confidence that a  future joint                                                               
resolution  will refine  the purpose  of observers  and alternate                                                               
delegates.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  T.  WILSON said  the  observer  also could  be  a                                                               
legislator,  who  could  give  advice.   She  said  the  proposed                                                               
legislation  is  general  on  purpose  to  allow  for  unforeseen                                                               
circumstances to be  addressed as they arise.   She said limiting                                                               
the scope now may result in  missing out on a discussion that may                                                               
result in the biggest impact for Alaska.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
8:56:23 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HUGHES,  referring   to  Representative  Keller's                                                               
comment about  "knowingly" being a  high standard of proof  for a                                                               
felony, pointed out  that the person who takes the  oath would be                                                               
saying   he/she  would   be   following   the  instructions   and                                                               
authorizations,  which she  said she  thinks "would  probably fit                                                               
the test for  the knowingly."  She said if  Legislative Legal and                                                               
Research  Services has  a differing  opinion on  that, she  would                                                               
like to know.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KELLER remarked that  proving "knowingly" might be                                                               
difficult, which is why it is a high standard.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HUGHES  reiterated that when a  delegate takes the                                                               
oath,  he/she  is  agreeing  to   follow  instructions,  so,  not                                                               
following them  would be done  knowingly; therefore,  even though                                                               
"knowingly is a high standard," it  would be "clearly shown to be                                                               
that they knew what they were doing."                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE T.  WILSON said  if five  delegates are  sent, but                                                               
just one votes,  then the one who  votes may be the  one who took                                                               
the  oath;  thus,  it  would  be clear  on  the  record  who  was                                                               
responsible  for casting  the vote.   Observers  who do  not vote                                                               
would not  have taken the  oath.   She clarified that  the felony                                                               
would be attached to taking the oath.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
8:58:35 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ISAACSON  directed   attention  to  the  language                                                               
beginning on  page 2, line  21, which states that  both delegates                                                               
and alternate delegates would take the oath.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE T. WILSON stated  that Representative Isaacson was                                                               
correct.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
8:59:02 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MIKE COONS,  Regional Director, Citizen Initiatives,  in response                                                               
to  Chair Lynn,  said  the  Citizen Initiatives  in  Alaska is  a                                                               
grassroots organization  advocating the proper interstate  use of                                                               
Article 5  of the  Constitution of  the United  States.   He said                                                               
state legislators  must not abdicate their  Article 5 sovereignty                                                               
to the  delegates at  the convention.   He said  the deliberative                                                               
body  is the  state legislature;  it is  not the  delegates.   He                                                               
mentioned  the  felony aspect  of  HB  310,  and noted  that  the                                                               
proposed legislation  would have  to be  signed by  the governor.                                                               
He  questioned if,  once a  constitutional convention  was called                                                               
for, a delegate resolution would  be created more specific to how                                                               
the convention  would be  run.   He asked, "Can  we do  that just                                                               
prior to going  to the convention or  can that be done  in a near                                                               
future aspect?"                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
9:01:07 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  T.  WILSON responded  that  the  State of  Alaska                                                               
won't determine  what is done  at the convention;  Congress calls                                                               
the convention once  there are a minimum of  34 states requesting                                                               
a convention.   The  State of Alaska  puts the  parameters around                                                               
only its delegates.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR.  COONS, referencing  Representative Hughes'  previous comment                                                               
about  one state/one  vote, stated  that  Article 5  of the  U.S.                                                               
Constitution says nothing about that.  He continued as follows:                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     In  our resolution,  the very  first "whereas"  is that                                                                    
     Article  5,  Section  4, of  the  Constitution  of  the                                                                    
     United  States  guarantees  each  state  a  Republican-                                                                    
     formed government that gives  each state equal standing                                                                    
     when  calling  for   a  federal  amendment  convention.                                                                    
     Article  5 of  the  Constitution of  the United  States                                                                    
     reserves the  state legislatures the right  to call for                                                                    
     a  federal convention  with  the  purpose of  proposing                                                                    
     amendments  to  the  United  States  Constitution  when                                                                    
     Congress,  court,   and  executive  branch   refuse  to                                                                    
     address the egregious wrongs suffered by the people.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     That  puts it  one  state/one vote.    Right now  there                                                                    
     really isn't anything that ...  does this as far as the                                                                    
     convention.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. COONS,  in response to  the comment  of the sponsor,  said if                                                               
the State of  Alaska and a number  of other states all  draw up a                                                               
similar  type  of   resolution  where  it  not   only  binds  the                                                               
delegates,  as  HB 310  would  do,  but  also  sets out  how  the                                                               
committees would be done, as well  as "a whole series of things,"                                                               
then  there  would   be  a  majority  of  states   going  to  the                                                               
convention; therefore,  there would be  "a sure and  safe aspect,                                                               
because that means the vast majority  of states that go into that                                                               
convention  have all  said this  is  the way  this convention  is                                                               
going to be  run."  Mr. Coons  said Congress has no  say in that;                                                               
once  the required  number  of states  call  for the  convention,                                                               
Congress names the date and time,  but then is "completely out of                                                               
the scope on that."                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. COONS, regarding the issue of  the felony aspect of the bill,                                                               
concurred  with Representative  Keller that  "this is  basically,                                                               
knowingly  violating that  oath."   He  offered an  example.   He                                                               
indicated that he  had sent out a delegate  resolution, which, if                                                               
adopted,  would  be  a  safe  convention  for  all  states.    He                                                               
indicated  that  Representative  Isaacson had  talked  about  the                                                               
ability to do a more general delegate resolution.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR.  COONS  said   he  read  HJR  22,  which   was  sponsored  by                                                               
Representative T. Wilson,  and he noted the  joint resolution was                                                               
a call for  a convention of states for topics.   He further noted                                                               
that  during the  current meeting,  Representative T.  Wilson had                                                               
said that  "these would  be amendments that  the states  would be                                                               
sending  down  ... with  the  delegates  to the  convention,  not                                                               
issues."   He questioned  how that would  work with  what already                                                               
passed under HJR 22.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
9:06:19 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE T.  WILSON said  there are two  ways of  doing it:                                                               
tell the delegates what topics  to address or, more specifically,                                                               
provide amendments  already written for the  delegates to support                                                               
at the convention.   She said the amendments would  still have to                                                               
match the  topics; they could not  go outside of them.   It would                                                               
be up  to the legislature at  the time to decide  how specific it                                                               
wants to get, she said.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. COONS said  he would advocate for the  amendments, because it                                                               
would provide  clarity when  states come together  to work  on an                                                               
amendment.  He said 51 percent have to ratify the amendment.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE T. WILSON  corrected Mr. Coons by  stating that it                                                               
would take a two-thirds vote to pass an amendment and a three-                                                                  
quarters vote  to ratify  it, so  it is  higher than  51 percent.                                                               
She said  she appreciates  Mr. Coons'  testimony.   She requested                                                               
that  Chair  Lynn  allow  her   to  incorporate  all  the  tweaks                                                               
suggested by the  committee into a committee  substitute to bring                                                               
back before the committee.  She  said some factors she would like                                                               
to  mull  over  would  be  regarding  the  number  of  delegates,                                                               
compensation, and  the issue brought up  by Representative Gattis                                                               
about the rules of the Electoral College.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
9:09:44 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. COONS  said he  would like to  see language  added reflecting                                                               
the aspect  of Article 5, Section  4, of the Constitution  of the                                                               
United States, so that it is  clearly stated that each state will                                                               
get only one  vote at the convention,  so that no one  can try to                                                               
get one vote per delegate.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
9:11:24 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GATTIS opined  that [HB 310] is  the "perfect next                                                               
step" following  the passage of [HJR  22 on the House  floor] the                                                               
prior day.  She said she  thinks the legislature is moving in the                                                               
right direction to state that  it wants the federal government to                                                               
pull back and listen to the states.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
9:11:59 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE T.  WILSON thanked the committee  and recapped the                                                               
concerns  the committee  had  expressed  throughout the  meeting.                                                               
She cautioned  not to get  so specific that the  legislature ties                                                               
the  hands  of  future  legislatures.   She  said  hopefully  the                                                               
federal government will  see that there is a  movement afoot, and                                                               
take  advantage  of the  opportunity  to  make changes  before  a                                                               
convention is  called.  In response  to Chair Lynn, she  said she                                                               
could have a committee substitute ready by the upcoming Tuesday.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
9:13:45 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR   LYNN   closed  public   testimony.      In  response   to                                                               
Representative Hughes, he  let it be known that he  was okay with                                                               
committee members communicating with  the bill sponsor as further                                                               
ideas come to mind for HB 310.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
9:14:38 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LYNN announced that HB 310 was held over.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
9:14:54 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ADJOURNMENT                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
There being no further business before the committee, the House                                                                 
State Affairs Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 9:15                                                                  
p.m.                                                                                                                            

Document Name Date/Time Subjects
01 HB310 v.U.pdf HSTA 3/13/2014 8:00:00 AM
HB 310
02 HB 310 Sponsor Statement.pdf HSTA 3/13/2014 8:00:00 AM
HB 310
03 HB 310 Supporting Document HB 284.pdf HSTA 3/13/2014 8:00:00 AM
HB 284
HB 310
04 HB 310 Supporting Document HJR 17 History, Legislation and Congressional Record.pdf HSTA 3/13/2014 8:00:00 AM
HB 310
05 HB 310 Supporting Document HJR Resolution 22.pdf HSTA 3/13/2014 8:00:00 AM
HB 310
06 HB 310 Supporting Document Indiana Code.pdf HSTA 3/13/2014 8:00:00 AM
HB 310
07 HB 310 Supporting Documents Indiana SB 224.pdf HSTA 3/13/2014 8:00:00 AM
HB 310
SB 224
08 HB310-LEG-SESS-3-10-14.pdf HSTA 3/13/2014 8:00:00 AM
HB 310